I have been attending a Sunday school class at my home church. It is taught by our parish associate and his wife. He is a retired pastor and she is a retired University professor of Religious Studies. They are teaching a class on the history of Christian doctrines. Today we were discussing Atonement theories. What was interesting today was at the end of class. We had a few minutes so Ray launched into a brief discussion of sin.
He asked if anyone had every knowingly and willingly done something to harm God. His contention is that sin is an act that is willingly done against God, and that we don’t try to harm God or neighbor generally. Sin requires a willful intent. To go with this he talked about how big is the god who you can sin against? He further contends that the concept of sin is something the church has put in place to create fear and guilt and to promote a wrathful God.
So what is sin? How does it affect your view of God? How does your understanding of God affect the understanding of sin? I’m still chewing on this one.
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8 comments:
Of course sin is not willful. If it was willful you could choose not to do it, which we can't aside from grace. We sin because we are sinners. Conversely, we do not do good because of our will either. Sola gratia. This is also compounded by the fact that we do not get to define what is good or sinful. Remember we are in sales, not management.
So if we don't get to define what is good or sinful, why do we (the church) keep trying to do just that?
Is it about a sales pitch to scare people into the church?
Just because we do not get to define it, does not mean that it is not defined for us. We have this little Bible thing which is suppose to be helpful in these matters, but which people do not seem to like. I'm preaching over 2 Timothy 3:14- 4:5 this week which made me go back and look at Migliore again re:revelation and scriptural authority. Interesting stuff! I do not think the church is about scaring, but freeing, renewing, and enjoying in light of God's revealed will. Anything else smacks of egotism and hedonism.
Fun to watch this debate.
First, the control or agency we do have has been given to us by God through Jesus Christ particularly where it comes to preaching the gospel message. We get to preach the message not define or redefine or create in our own image the message. And that is the point where we do get to respond faithfully as we have been called. Second, we definitely are moved to reconciliation, but we all too often forget that reconciliation is dependent on repentance which is difficult when we seem to not understand sin.
uhm uhm...your friend sounds a bit augustinian...classic...but i wrestle with what exactly we "intend" to do...if we cannot do the things we want and do the things we do not want, then how are we to reason about sin? is reason even negotiable regarding sin?
i think i'm turning catholic sometimes...actually i like the existentialist version of everything better...when one cannot pinpoint the exact place of the "beginning" of sin, it makes it easier just to accept that it happens- and then try to reason out how to deal with it...
why is it necessary to label sin? is it truly a condition? or is it something that systems have put in place to label what not to do? oh, wait, the seperation thing...i think tim said the Bible thing...what i really want to know is what exactly it is...sin, that is...disobedience? it's gotta be more than that...if so, this means that ethics seperated God and humanity...moral choice...do and don't...i'm not sure a bad moral choice is what reconciliation is all about...
Great discussion! Leviticus reminds us that the priests made sacrifices on behalf of sins committed but unknown. Sin existed in antiquity without realizing it's sin, and I can't imagine it's any different today. Even covered by grace, humanity is no less a slave to sin.
I'm considering a tatoo-
What part of "total depravity" don't you understand?
What do you think?
Paul I like it! I think I would go with what became an unofficial class motto...
"Total Depravity not just a doctrine anymore."
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